Rick Warren - A sheep or a wolf?

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[this is good]
Ron this is so good! A while back I was working at a self-proclaimed business. They wanted all employees to grow in their Christian walk so they purchased several dozen of "The purpose driven life."

Like you, the first day I opened that book, I knew it was deceptive teachings. Like you also I checked his scripture references and then checked those references with my NKJ bible.

I found the translations he used are unbiblical, they were twisted and taken out of context to make them say what he wanted them to say.

I was to turn in their questions with my answers once a week. It ended up taking 3 or more days through one chapter. I answered their questions but not with Rick Warrens text, but with scripture. And of course this made for very detailed answers. Most who turned in their answers - I noticed they had a short page. But mine was very lengthy. After 4 or 5 times of returning my answers, I was told to not give all of the scripture proofs and to just answer them according to the purpose driven life.

I told them I could not knowingly answer their questions with false answers. They then proceeded to tell me that I was demonizing a good man (Rick Warren) and therefore I was not a Christian.

Of course I quit the job and was thankful for not having to read anymore of this deceitful book.

You quoted John MacArthur - I love his teachings. Another great preacher/teacher is Ravi Zacharias. Here is a video of Ravi Zacharias speaking about "where does evil come from."

Also I've started a group blog on Vox. It's called "Protestant Reformation History and Current Reformation Living. Would you please join that group and post this on it and anything else you want to.
[this is good]
I hit post before I was finished.

I attend a reformed church. Our church is also like John MacArthur's church in teaching solo scriptura. Scriptures Alone.

Do you attend a reformed church?

On the group blog I told you about also has another reformed thinking person, her blog is here.

Again thank you for posting this - and please consider joining Protestant Reformation History and Current Reformation Living. If you click on the second link for "Ravi Zacharias" video, it is at the group blog above.

Mr. DeWaay doesn't know what he's talking about. What's wrong with using different translations of the scriptures? Yes, some "translations" are indeed paraphrases, like The Message by Eugene Petersen & The Living Bible. Both of which clearly identify temselves as paraphrases.

I've been a member of Saddleback Church since 1993. I moved to Seattle in 2005 but am still officially a member at Saddleback & view the services in real time online as often as I can. I was privileged to be a part of the music ministry there, leading worship for weekend services, weeknight Bible studies & singles ministry.

Rick Warren is the real deal. His ministry is focused on evangelism, followed by equipping believers by teaching proven effective bible study methods, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, & each of us discovering God's purpose for our lives. Rick Warren teaches that each of us are created to serve, not only serving the body of Christ (believers) but also the unchurched. The church has most recently been focusing on serving the world affected by HIV/AIDS, specifically the horrendous toll its taken on Africa, leaving tens of thousands of children orphaned, many older children caring for younger siblings because they have no one else.

Ron, are you or the previous commenter seminary trained bible students? Is the writer of the article you've quoted? To me, a Bible translation is "authentic" if it is a literal translation of the original Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and/or Latin. I have an NIV Life Application bible, which includes commentary & examples of practical ways to apply the Word to our lives today. Are you or either of these other gentlemen qualified to state unequivocally which "translations" are authentic or unbiblical? Have you studied in depth the various translations that Rick references in The Purpose Driven Life? To be so narrow as to believe that the KJV & the NKJV are the only "valid/legit" translations is just totally uninformed. When you or I or the author of this critical article earn a

....Masters of Divinity with an emphasis in Old & New Testament, perhaps THEN we will have the right to critique Pastor Rick's book.

Do you really believe that Pastors all over the world, Seminary trained Pastors, would teach this book in their churches if it was unbiblical?? Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of Pastors, Bible scholars, & their faithful parishoners are all SHEEP for embracing this book & its practical lessons? That you three men (and a very small population of jealous Pharisees of today) are right and EVERYONE else is wrong? If Rick's book was heresy, would God have blessed it like He has? NO! It would have been disected & disproven long before now.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. Also, "vengeance is MINE" sayeth the Lord. Think about it.

For a Pastor of a church of over 20,000 members on the rolls, Rick Warren has personally hugged me, thanked me for my service in leading worship, & prayed with me one on one. He is an amazing individual & he and his wife Kay, his father before him, and HIS father befor him have committed their entire lives to serve God & His people. They "reverse tithe", committing 90 percent of their income (and take NO salary from Saddleback church) to the Lord. Do you REALLY believe that everyone is so blind and that his book is a sham??

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I would be honored to be even a fraction of the Christian Rick is. Or to have that kind of faith and vision. Can you with all confidence & accuracy truly agree with the article you've cited". Have you double & triple checked the authors claims? Please, Ron, do not allow yourself to jump on the bandwagon of some naysayer unless you have studied & verified his assertions. You are a much wiser man than that. I just wouldn't post something like this without knowing the facts. But that's just me.

As always, you are in my prayers daily, as you have been for the past year.
May God bless you, my brother in Christ, Denise (redeemed preachers daughter) :-)

Information on Bob Deeway.

Denise...I am not judging anyone. What I am doing is to let people know what our Christian "leaders" are leading us Christians.

Get the copy of 'A Time of Departing' by Ray Yungen, and 'Faith Undone' by Roger Oaklan.



You don't see this entire post as passing judgment? The title alone is judgmental. There are so many out there that are legitimately harming the church. Why spend your time criticizing / critiquing one of the good guys? I honestly don't get it. Do you REALLY believe Rick Warren, his ministry, and/or his book are harmful to the body of Christ? This is an honest question....I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I will check out the links you posted. Thanks
Musicchick2 first I'd like to remind you that the Pharisees were the Old Testament scholars of Jesus days. They were all scholars and were very proud of their learning and they thought they were godly men, and most all of the Jewish people thought the Pharisees were godly men. But Jesus said they were empty vessels. They were clean on the outside but filthy on the inside. Could not the same be said of our times. What would Jesus say to Rick Warren according to God's word given to us?

You threw out a bunch of different bumper sticker slogan sayings above your several comments. As you see with just this one out of context "judge not, lest you be judged" it takes time to go through these and rightly divide the word of truth. So we will only take one at a time and not pick up another until we've worked our way through this first one.

I, American Infidel has yes indeed had seminary training. Have you? Also There is nothing wrong with preferring the King James Bible or the New King James translation of the bible. Those two translations are an excellent translation of the word of God. Any bible scholar should also have a concordance. It's worth to note that some of our words now, had a different meanings in 1 century AD. Also we have to take with context, the history of the times, and the locations and the customs.

"Judge not, lest you be judged"

You quoted this one section of this one verse and also you have taken this verse out of context. To know the meaning of any verse you have to keep it in it's context or you misuse it. Anyone can take a verse out of context and give it a meaning they prefer it to mean. But as we all should know, just because we prefer to believe something because we prefer it to be true, does not make it true.

Lets look at the whole entire context of the portion of the verse you quoted.

Matthew 7 (New King James Version) 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

This right here gives you instruction to how to be able to make a judgement call. It doesn't say don't do it, it says "remove the plank from your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." How can you remove a plank from your own eye if you can't even make a judgment on if you have a plank in your own eye? Also, after you make the judgment to recognize there was a plank to remove from your own eye, then how will you be able to remove a speck from your brothers eye if you can't make a judgment that there is a speck in his eye?

So far we have seen that we are not to hypocritically make judgments, but we are not told to never make judgments.
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

The verse above you might find interesting too. Who do you say are considered the dogs? Or swine? Do you think Jesus to be talking about animals?

"What is holy" is a reference to the evidences of the kingdom, such as the healings and exorcisms, which may explain why Jesus did no miracles for unbelievers. But "what is holy" would also include the preaching of the kingdom; believers should not continue to preach to people who have rejected the gospel with contempt and scorn (Matthew 10:14; Matthew 15:14). The Book of Acts illustrates the principle in practice (Acts 13:44-51; 18:5, 6; 28:17-28).
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

This verse above tells me just because someone is popular and has a large following does not prove one to be a true prophet or teacher of the word of God.
5 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.

And here "you will know them by their fruits." What are the fruits Jesus is talking about? The fruits of the Spirit. What are the fruits of the Spirit?

How can someone know them by their fruits? They make judgments.
How are we able to make a judgment? By if they have good fruits or bad fruits. How would I know that if I were not allowed to judge? If Jesus did not want us to make judgments, why would He here tell us
how to judge. Which we have to make a judgment. "Are they 'good'
fruits, or 'bad' fruits.

We make judgments every single day of our lives and about other people. People we work with, people we marry, people we do business with, our children. Again how can we raise our children and teach them right from wrong if we could not make judgments?

I can go on and on so I'll give you a verse and if you read the whole context of this verse it will also help you to understand we are to make judgments but in what spirit we are to make judgments.

John 7:24 -
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
This again is Jesus Speaking.

Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Again "by their fruits you will know them." Gotta make a judgment here!

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Not easy to answer the simple minded with a simple answer, is it? They have over simplified the teaching of Jesus and take only that portion that fits their own will.
I have been asked to contribute and have read much further into the original post and the lengthy comments. Having examined the entire discussion to this point, I have some observations. The first thing is; I am glad to have Christians at least listen to more studied Christians for guidance in their lives. I would prefer that every Christian dig into the Word for themselves, but the reality is most people will depend on what others glean from the Scriptures.

I have an analogy to demonstrate how this is detrimental to their own walk with God. We Christians are like a huge pile of sponges. God wants to have a direct relationship with each one of us. He is like a stream of pure clean water that feeds us everything we need. However, we can receive living water from those sponges who have that direct relationship with the Source since they have the water of life overflowing. The only problem with relying on the Christians who have that direct feed from God is that these sponges are not pure. Some are cleaner than others, but all have some impurities, some sin which taints that pure clean water from the Source. Jesus said, "You have no need of any to teach you, for you have the Holy Spirit to teach you." (paraphrased) If you do not have that direct feed from God daily, you can benefit from the input of great teachers, but it is better by far to keep that flow coming directly from God.
Second; I have watched Christians for decades, too busy polishing their armor or fighting with each other to do the work God is calling us to. Harvesting the fields of souls who know they need God but don't know how to receive Him. It troubles me greatly that we expend so much energy on the minor differences when the big ones march merrily on. Rick Warren has a slightly tainted message compared to those who claim they are the only church with access to God. I'm referring to cults like Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS. That said, I prefer people to believe in these kinds of cults which twist the Scriptures (to make Jesus less than God or raise themselves up to His equal) than to fall prey to truly insidious evil religions like that of the murderous Islamo-Nazis or similar faiths.

Third; I am fully prepared to debate the application of scriptures and the resulting theology, but I don't think it is beneficial to any commenter (who all believe in the same God and gospel) to knock the sources or Source they are relying on for life direction. Still, I am disappointed that a member of the ministry, a worship leader, is not set securely in that direct feed from God referred to in point one. I happen to know your music ministry will bloom with that kind of knowledge of God. Performing others' music works to get the believers in the worship mood, but personal revelations from God through the Scriptures will put you into that place of feeding others Rick Warren is holding with you. A person with that kind of feed from God will also be more equipped to evaluate what others posit as 'from God.'

Fellowship with the believers is designed like a coal fire. A single lump of coal set apart from other lumps of coal soon loses its fire. When set back in among the onfire Christians, you get fired up too. When every member is in the Word and busy in the work, your get togethers become celebrations of success stories. When one member is studying for the whole group from the Source, too much authority, and too little call to the Standard will result in another cult being formed. I don't doubt that Rick has other Spirit led leaders that hold him to the Standard, but my concern for any group that dis-allows the Root Source for its program to be used in its meetings is strong enough to, at a minimum, call into question what that study has become.
[this is good]
I read the first couple of chapters of Rick Warren's book and choked on it. His theology just didn't seem right. Other people I know think it is so wonderful. Your post puts into words what I felt reading Warren. I think his thinking is just another way Satan is using to disarm the Church and keeping it from spreading the Gospel. So many churches have drifted from preaching the Scriptures to preaching about issues that only God can resolve. The direction the Church has taken in the last twenty years has really bothered me.

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Ron
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An Ordinary man in Christ who makes all things new

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